This recording is from the Future of Museums Summit held November 1-2, 2023.

The health of an organization’s culture directly influences its success. It is easy, however, to overlook our most valuable asset–our people–in decision-making. Explore the concept of human-centered HR as the future of work, emphasizing its role in sustaining museums. Discover actionable steps to ensure staff are seen, heard, valued, and integrated into decisions, resulting in stronger teams and a more equitable organizational culture.

Moderator: Micah Parzen, CEO, Museum of Us

Panelists:

• Christian Greer, President & CEO, Michigan Science Center
• Lori Fogarty, Director & CEO, Oakland Museum of California
• Elizabeth Yang-Hellewell, Executive Director & CEO, New Children’s Museum

Transcript

Micah Parzen: Welcome everybody. Thank you so much, my name is Micah Parzen. And I’m the chief executive officer of the Museum of Us formerly the San Diego Museum of Man and welcome to our session today Sharing our Human Centered Workplace Practices Will Uplift Us All. I wanted to start as a departure point, I thank you for all of you for being here. I think it says an enormous amount about who you are. It says that you care about your team that you work with whatever shape that may take and you care about the people in your organization. And whether you are just human centered workplace practices curious deeply committed to cultivating a human-centered workplace culture, I think we all share the instinct if our museums are to be sustainable in the long term that we have to build them from the people up.

So this session today is about precisely that. And I have some of my favorite colleagues joining me today to kind of unpack what that means and what it could look like.

And we will get to them in a moment. For now I wanted to do a little bit of framing, however. We are going to start this session with the premise that a human-centered workplace turn is long overdue in the museum field. I think evidence of this really a bonds  abounds in our industry. Our colleagues are leaving or intending to leave the field in droves. Research indicates that is as many as half within the next three years.

If you follow the Instagram account change the museum whose self-proclaimed goal is to pressure US museums to move beyond lip service, proclamations amplifying steal sales of unchecked racism, it has close to 900 posts and most are about workplace irk shoes, it affects BIPOC museum professionals. It has well over 50,000 followers. In order to communicate enough is enough, museum workers speak and organization long devote today combating pay inequity in the field states it has become clear to us when our institutions will not stand in solidarity with us, we must stand in solidarity with one another. Toward that end, almost 13% of all museums have already unionized with many more undoubtedly on the way. It’s really clear, I think, that workplace issues have become one of the most pressing challenges facing all of us today.

Thankfully, though, there is also very good news. Many museums are already rethinking the role that institutional culture can play in creating healthy organizations. And I think necessity, as usual, is really serving as the mother of invention. On the one hand while the COVID-19 pandemic forced many museums to find new ways of supporting their remaining team members during a time of all sorts of unique challenges, the murder of George Floyd upon so many other murders also helped it expose the lived experience of BIPOC museum professionals as often being utterly inconsistent with the inclusive values many of us espouse. All of this has pushed the field to do better. And many museums are committing to do so. They are asking questions like how might we better support our team members? What are specific pain points?  what steps can we take to address those issues. What does it look like when we include them in our data gathering, solution development and decision-making processes and most importantly how can we follow-up with concrete actions that truly put our people first.

So human-centered workplace practice experiments that are taking these questions to heart can already be found in many museums you of all types and sizes throughout the field. They often show up as small but also meaningful shifts in how a museum practices. Those shifts in turn are leading to more human-centered organizational cultures are team members are starting to feel more seen, more heard, more valued and ultimately more appreciated. Their insights are helping to directly inform the decision-making process and in turn, better decisions which are leading to better outcomes for their institutions.

The result is teams are growing stronger. Workplace culture is healthier and these museums are becoming even more sustainable over time.

And while some of these experiments are highly successful, others are getting chocked up to research and development. Either way when museums work with their teams in human-centered ways it helps us all learn more about what is working and what’s not working. In other words sharing our human-centered workplace practices will uplift us all. Which is why we are here today. Again, some of our best colleagues in the field, some of my favorite people who are doing just this kind of work today, would like to after that framing give them an opportunity to share a little about themselves, including who they are, where they work, how long they have been there and what brought them to human-centered work.

So Lori, maybe we start with you?

Lori Fogarty: There we go. Unmuting. Thank you, Micah for that framing. I’m really honored to be on the panel and learn from you all and learn from the folks in the audience as well. We have a breakout session after this and I’m eager to hear the human-centered work practices you all are employing. I’m Lori Fogarty, director of the Oakland museum of California. I’ve been here gosh 17 and a half years so a long time at my institution. I would say what has more and more brought me to understanding the importance of workplace culture and human-centered work is really understanding the link between our culture, our processes, our structure, which essentially makes up our workplace culture and ability to achieve our mission vision and values. I think it’s really impossible to separate the kind of culture we have and our work practices from the way we engage our publics. That’s become increasingly clear to me, particularly in the last few years. It’s something I’m excited about and committed to.

Micah Parzen: Thanks, Lori, Christian how about you?

Christian Greer: Thank you, Micah. I’m excited to how to adapt or human-centered practices to how we organize ourselves. Organizational structures some cases may be archaic with top-down, hierarchical, perhaps patriarchal structures that exist that create silos and don’t necessarily allow us to be flexible enough for today’s environment. So trying to explore creating new organizational modes and structures around learning around connecting around agile practices and others that allow for a whey that people want to work. You have to account for a way people want to work. Are we set up in the right way, this is what I will be discussing.

Micah Parzen: Wonderful, thanks, Christian. And Elizabeth?

Elizabeth Yang-Hellewell: Hello, I’m Elizabeth Yang-Hellewell. I’m the Executive Director and CEO of the new children’s museum in downtown San Diego. I’ve been here nearly two years. I’ve spent my entire career in museums. So from front line education, part-time staff member, through management, and now the head of a high-touch contemporary art space. And human-centered practices in HR are central to how we are working at the new Children’s Museum. We are a unionized organization. We are part of that 13% that Micah mentioned in his introduction.

The union was already present when I arrived here on the scene, not quite two years ago. And they are an important partner in how we are working today. And centering our team members in the work we are doing.

We are going to talk a little bit today, particularly around my organization and how we are using human centered practices to solve some pain point challenges. Happy to be here.

Micah Parzen: Wonderful. Thank you all. Appreciate that background context. We want before we go further to do a little bit of level-setting, in terms of what are human-centered workplace practices? They could mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people. So just to sort of give us a springboard to depart from, human-centered workplace work really emerges from the process of human-centered design that some of you may be very familiar with. And it really comes from this idea that the best way to begin to address a challenge or a problem is to start with the people who are most impacted. For organizational cultures really starts with the idea that your most important asset is not your collections. Your most important asset is actually your people. And without those folks, there really is no museum. So it starts by really creating a culture where it is really safe for team members to share their actual lived experience at work. You know. As leaders we often hear what people think we want to hear, not the truth. when we hear what people think we want to hear, we end up reproducing those pain points. So when people can share their lived experience in an authentic way it allows us to start to identify those pain points and then begin to engage them in a process where the folks who are closest to the challenge of the problem can really be involved and integral parts of developing solutions. A lot of iterative listening, a lot of engagement in process of saying are we getting it right? If not, what’s not working, what is working? What do we change and what stays the same? We start to see new and different kind of context for team member engagement, for team member productivity. And even innovation. And I know Christian will talk a little bit about that more. And the good news is that you know, particularly when you are playing the long game here and human-centered work really is playing the long game, that this sort of almost magical virtuous cycle of benefits starts to evolve. Not that things are always great and peachy keen and everything works exactly how it is supposed to and everybody couldn’t be happier, but you start to create a fertile ground where team members not only want to do their best but it often creates conditions where they can do their best and bring their whole selves to work in order to do so and creates a context where they want to stay. You are avoiding the vicious sort of cycle of recruiting folks and training folks and they leave and starting all over and your projects never firing on all pistons. You end up sort of dying this death by a thousand cuts.

Christian?

Christian Greer: I will start with something simple from my perspective, take the human out of it for a second and let’s talk about centers. I think there are a lot of ways which people center themselves, personally, professionally. What is interesting right now is the centering around personal and professional are coming around. I think remote work, the impact of the pandemic, focus on inclusion and belonging has created a new environment in our workplaces.

And so we are in the process of recentering ourselves. If you haven’t already. And what’s interesting is that center is moving toward a more human-centered, people-centered even subjective reality to some extent that we have to account for. At this case, being at a science fair is more like relativity. Einstein had this idea that maybe things like space and time from Newton’s perspective weren’t so absolute. Maybe someone’s reference frame might change the way they see the events around them happening.

I think the same thing is happening right now in the workplace. We are seeing the spaces that we work in and the times in which we work together kind of shift. So my interest as I try to adapt to that in our organization and creating the structures that might allow us to be able to shift things in a way that makes sense. And that’s what we are all dealing with in terms of finding new centers.

Lori Fogarty: Yeah, I love that. I also wrote down your reference before about the kind of terms responsibility and accountability. And what that really means. That is certainly a huge part of what I’ve been thinking about over the past few years and you think our leadership team here is accountability and who are we most accountable to?

I will say personally, it’s been a big shift for me. I think for directors of institutions we talk about the accountability to our public for sure. But often we think of ourselves being most accountable to our boards and donors, often. I think the shift of accountability and Micah you said this, centering those who are most impacted and thinking where the greatest impact is and really recognizing that, among the most impacted certainly we have communities and the public. But also our staff. Who are most impacted by our culture, our structures, our working processes. And really centering those voices and particularly around transparency and decision-making structures, as you said, Christian. I think accountability, shifting my notion of accountability has been really important. And I will say, you know, I will also just say that I think, yes, employee retention, recruitment by having human-centered practices is certainly a benefit. I also think it just brings more joy to the work, to center, to have human-centered work practices. And heaven knows in this time we all need more joy in our work. Regardless of the level you are within an institution. So I think if we shift our thinking about oh, this is more work, or oh now we have to listen to people that we didn’t have to listen to before, or that is going to make decision-making more cumbersome and think by having more common purpose we will also have more joy in the workplace.

Elizabeth Yang-Hellewell: I love this conversation about accountability. I will say it’s also something our team is thinking about at the New Children’s Museum. Last year we developed a new mission and vision statement, and part of our mission statement is talking about the communities that we serve. In conversation with our board and our teams, including our staff as a visible community we are serving as an organization was critically important in the inclusion of that mission statement.

And it’s something that we talk about in every single one of our staff meetings and in our strategic planning meetings. That our staff, our team is one of our communities. So when we are developing installations and programs, we think as much about the impact on our internal team as a community as we do about our visitor community. I’m right there with you, Lori and Christian. It’s critically important, I think as we are moving forward.

Micah Parzen: Yeah, I love too, this thread of accountability. And also something we have been thinking a lot about of the Museum of Us, this idea, typically museums think about the visitor experience as the be-all-end-all, right? That more is more. We need to turnover our exhibits more quickly, have more exhibits, have more public programs, serve more students. And on the flip side we think of the workplace culture initiatives that we engage in the way we treat our staff sometimes as less is more. I think human-centered work really flip that’s script. Our visitors come maybe once a year, maybe twice, maybe a handful if they are super in our institutions. But the staff, the folks who are doing the work day-in, day-out who show up every day, those are the people who are most likely to engage in a transformational experience as part of our organization. To some extent I think that’s true for our trustees, true for our donors who are really engaged in our work. But it’s really true for our team members who very with the best  chance of transforming their lives for the better much more than our visitors. I don’t mean to short shift the visitor experience. I wonder if we can spend a little bit of time, Lori, unpacking why joy in the workplace, in terms of allowing people to bring their whole selves to their work benefits the whole organization. And ways you have seen these kinds of human-centered shifts you have been taking really playing out for the good, as you are looking out for the long term. And what is a sustainable organization you are helping to lead. Thoughts?

Christian Greer: I’ll share something. I think, wow there’s a lot in that. Micah, you bring up a really tough one. I think what I’m really struggling with now is where do I fit in as an employee and a member of the team and where do I fit in as a leader on the team. That almost stacks two different responsibilities. One is the responsibility for yourself to be able to adapt. Adapt to the needs of the organization, embrace the mission, understand the communities that you serve, and being there for them with the expertise you bring to the table, right?

But then there’s your personality. Your personality is sort of the filter that comes in front of all that stuff. Or sometimes even generates how you connect with people. And somehow or another that has to work within a society in your organization.

It has to work within the cultural norms and frameworks within your org. And then depending on the climate of things going on, it changes people’s emotions and how they respond to things that might just be a little issue with an event, turns into a huge problem, right?

Well, it requires us, I think, on the human side to look in the mirror and recognize that we are the first human we need to work with. And try to determine how we can best adapt to these environments and work with people. Understand the limits of our personalities and connect with them and that sort of thing. I think as a leader, that layer, what I’m trying to do is ask people to be a little bit more compromising. Someone mentioned less is more. I think that’s really an important thing to think about. If you really believe in less is more, you are kind of trying to say to some extent, we are focusing. We are grounding in something. We are going to prioritize the things that are important. That’s the only way you can get to less is more and be valuable. I think sometimes we spend a lot of time on things that aren’t important when we really should be worrying about the guests and the learners in the program. The folks who take care of our collections, that sort of thing. As well as communities we serve, of which we are part of those. And that I, I think will help us become more human-centered. We are fallible but we can grow and learn. And can we do that together, I think, is the question that we need to try to address.

Lori Fogarty: I love, Christian that you started with the individual. And I do think, as leaders of institutions we are often thinking about the structural and the organizational and I think human-center practice takes individual growth and learning as leaders. So definitely having been on that journey, probably we will always be on that journey. I think what’s been helpful kind of making me for our organization, doing this work is really making the direct connection between the external work and the internal work. I thought about that because I agree with you, Micah, we prided our self to being a visitor-centered institution and we have kind of broadened that to being community-centered and really incorporated what you were saying Elizabeth, internal community. Our social impact which has been around the concept of social cohesion, building greater trust, understanding and connection between and among people. The huge light bulb that’s gone off for me, I think would sound self-evident, it’s important to realize we can’t build trust, understanding and connection with our visitors, with our public unless we have that internally. So the internal capacity, the workplace practices, the way we do our work, embedding that concept of social cohesion into our internal work as much as our external work has helped, I think, with the meaning making of all of this, and why it’s important.

Micah Parzen: Love it. Thank you. Elizabeth, anything you want to add before we go on?

Elizabeth Yang-Hellewell: No, yes, this is tremendous conversation. I want to make sure we get to everything, so we can move on.

Micah Parzen: Great. Well, Lori, I know you have long been a big believer know, no matter where they are in their position in an organization can help foster a human-centered workplace culture in the museum. Was hoping maybe you could speak more to that.

Lori Fogarty: Sure, I mean among people watching there are probably folks at different levels of organization. You know, entry level staff, emerging professionals, middle managers, credit to you because you are right in the sandwich, which I know is challenging. So you can think about whether you are the resource director or human resources director or manager or you know, somebody who supervises one person or somebody who not yet is managing folks. Just to speak to the way I think about it here at the Oakland Museum of California, certainly at the leadership level, we would be overlooking a huge thing if we didn’t mention pay equity. Giving that leadership level including our board. That’s a huge part of it. I love Christian and we will have to continue this conversation on organizational structure. I’ve done a lot of restructuring of our organization over my many years. I do think structure matters in terms of fostering human-centered practices. Key processes, how does the staff have visibility and transparency in our budget process for example, how can budget managers really have a say? How do we bring human-centered practices into every aspect of our work including things that sometimes get taken for granted that they work in a certain way, like budgeting.

I want to give a huge shout out to “Middle managers”. People not necessarily at the leadership level and supervise staff. I think honestly, that’s where the human-centered connection is really critical. Those are the relationships where trust is built between direct supervisors and their staff. So I do think creating a culture of feedback and input and transparency and, Micah, I think you were saying psychological safety. That is an open space where people can directly bring up their issues or considerations. It doesn’t happen in a staff meeting of 100 people. So I think that really ensuring our middle managers have the support and training around human-centered practice is important. But I will tell you, the joy I think comes from the staff.

Because what I have seen at our institution is people who are really taken accountability for contributing to organizational culture. It’s everything from, we have a couple of programs that were staff generated. Staff start one, the connections program which pairs people, people opt into it, you don’t have to do it, but people are paired with another staff member once a month to have coffee, have lunch, get to know people across the institution. That’s one. Our staff started shortly before the pandemic. And I think it’s been invaluable. I kind of separate email track called om ka together. Just share support. My band is playing this weekend. Or I’ve got a dog that needs a home for a few weeks. Really powerful, just acknowledging what people are going through. Do it in a way that creates traditions. Creates  ways of celebrating and connecting. I’m so grateful to the people on our staff who have taken leadership in that way.

Micah Parzen: Lori, yeah, there becomes almost a self-organizing principle that goes into effect. It takes on a life of its own, really, right? Thank you also for calling out pay equity in particular. I think a statement by Robert Reich former labor of secretary. If you can’t afford to pay a living wage, you don’t have a viable business model. That kind of. Using that as a departure point I think is a really critical one for all of us.

Elizabeth, when you arrived at NCM a couple years ago, the organization had just unionized and I understand it entered into the first collective bargaining agreement. I know some talks we had early on, I was so impressed rather than you hunkering down for battle with the union, you kind of flipped the script to focus on how you could work in allyship. Can you talk a little more about that?

Elizabeth Yang-Hellewell: Sure. I think I have a slightly different perspective too. I came into this organization, as you said, Micah. And it was already unionized. But I will say, for this organization, just a little bit of context. This is a high-touch children’s museum, but also a contemporary art space. So everything that is in this museum, every program, every installation, every hands-on art making project was designed by an artist. It’s a unconventional beautiful space.

It’s also a space, as I can imagine Christian and Lori, where it’s very high visitorship. So anywhere from 600 to 2500 people in a given day. You could imagine our front line staff members are critically important to how the engagement of our visitors on a regular basis.

So the visitor-facing staff members of this organization started conversations around unionization in 2015. They signed their first collective bargaining agreement in 2020, which we all know is right when things were being shut down. So the pandemic hit. This organization, like so many, closed. In San Diego County, this museum was closed the longest out of any other organization. Because again, high-touch children’s museum. Over 18 months. I came onto the scene as this organization was reopening. And it was the first full year that NCM was going to be operating really under this collective bargaining agreement with a full team. It was a very particular moment and I think there were a lot of shifts within the organization, about really how to work with a union team. I mean, from Day 1 for me, it’s coming into an organization where there is a union and there’s a CBA structure. I think for me, there was only opportunity there for conversation. For true allyship, Micah, as you were saying.

And the union really is, for this organization, they are a working partner for us.

And some of the early conversations before we jumped into this panel with Lori and Micah, I was saying, I have to say one of the great benefits, I think, in sort of developing our human-centered practices at this organization is that, you know, I have an understanding and our team and really, everyone in that sandwich, as Lori was mentioning knows exactly what the pain points are within the organization. And at any given moment we can name them. We can identify them. And then we are developing approaches to tackle them. And this goes into, I think some of the good questions that are popping up in the chat too.

About really in practice, how do you move this forward? And I will say, we can talk a little bit more about this later but one of the very practical things we have been doing at this organization is develop 90-day projects. We have developed these projects really about challenges within the organization that are identified by any given member of the team. And the full team, the full staff works together to decide sort of what is the highest priority of these 90-day projects? What is the greatest challenge for the organization. And then the team, the full-staff team really works together to form a Working Group. That Working Group takes 90 days and it’s important to have a start and a finish. And a sort of finite amount of time. To at least develop next steps on how to tackle that challenge with the organization.

And this has been a game-changer for us. Because I think, you know, I, you know, as the CEO, I’m not in a majority of those 90-day project sessions. They are really team-led. And sometimes it’s our visitor services experience specialist leading one of those teams and sometimes it’s one of the middle managers leading one of those project teams. So there’s no hierarchy in that respect. And we are really able to, I think we have really tackled some important challenges. And I think not solved everything that the organization ever needs to tackle. But we are able to sort of develop very quick responses to those pain points pretty immediately.

Micah Parzen: Thanks, Elizabeth. Really illuminating. And again, just love how you are sort of flipping that script from traditional approaches and taking what many would see as a weakness and leveraging it as a strength in many ways.

Christian, we have worked together a lot in this space. And I really marvel at how powerful the work you are doing in the human-centered  workplace space is in leveraging it as a springboard to innovation at the Michigan Science Center. And I was hoping you could share more about what that has looked like for you and your team.

Christian Greer: It’s been a challenging few years, when I started after the pandemic as a freshman CEO, which I was thrown into the deep end of the pool and barely survived, we started off with this idea of doing social network analysis. I was interested in trying to understand whether or not certain people that I thought were at the center of getting things done were really at the center. Meaning, who do you go to lunch with, or need help on a project. We mapped out the entire of organization with a group of what are called sociograms. They are cool diagrams that put everybody person as a node and then show their connections. So some people have one way actions, if they need something from someone. Others have connections that go both ways, they are sharing different ideas, depending on where all those nodes and roads lead you might have someone very central to a lot of things that get done. This became a real problem because when we started laying people off during the pandemic, a lot of the people that are key connectors those nodes that really make the culture of your organization go, I will say in parentheses because I think Lori touched on this, it’s not something that actually has the title that is in charge but someone else that has the social capital. If you want something done you might have to go to somebody with the social capital.

And usually those people are the most human-centered because they deal with the most connections, they talk to the most people. They have to work around different silos and activities in different organizations. I have been working along those lines to try to create new structures and organize our organization more around projects that have to get done, rather than the siloed effect for expertise and/or responsibility for a certain function. That’s when you move from like a functional top-down organization, to something completely flat like a holacracy, some most people are kind of in the middle where you are a matrix. Nobody really knows how that works. At some point we have to take the cover off that freaking org chart and rip that up and just say what do we need to do to make this project work, that project work, this function, a gala? An evening event? Whatever. When you put those on top of each other, none of those org charts match-up. So that’s what happened to us. So we started thinking, how do we design this differently. And we are in the process now of creating more learning circles at different levels. We are organized less among departments, we do have departments but as Lori was talking about the leadership at every level. Think with Elizabeth’s comment about that equity, that’s part of the reasons why we have so many inequities because of the way we are structured. Everybody in development is a director. I came up through education, there was no way I would be on anybody’s pay equity. Yet a lot of things people came to see was for me. When I create more balance with my development department, they appreciated me, I appreciated them.

They couldn’t get the members without all the stuff we were doing, then you could start having that conversation on getting people together. But it’s a challenging thing, I think we are still trying to deal with that, but that’s what we are working on now is how to re-engage the team creating new structures that actually work around this human-centered paradigm.

Micah Parzen: Love it, Christian. Thank you for sharing that piece around innovation. We have just a few minutes left together in this sort of part one. We do have a part two coming up in about five minutes after this session closes. That one is entitled human-centered workplace practices, sharing is caring.

We will share more examples about some of the concrete things we have done in our spaces that hopefully others can kick the tires on, perhaps bring in their own institutions, come up with their own versions. And I hope you will join us and share yours as well. But in a couple, two or three minutes we have left, I wonder if we might give them a teaser of sorts. We are talking about a lot of this in a theoretical kind of way. We are kind of sharing what human-centered work looks like, what the benefits are, delving into certain areas. But I think some concrete examples people can get their arms around can really help.

Elizabeth, do you want to share something, and we can move to Lori and Christian before we sign off and take a little break before the next session?

Elizabeth Yang-Hellewell: Absolutely. I would love to talk more about the 90-day projects that our organization has been working on, Christian, it sounds like your organization too. I was taking notes as you were  talking. Organizing your organization around projects. I think it’s critical, truly, how our museums and organizations are moving forward in human-centered practices. It’s all something we have heard before, but developing those interdepartmental teams to work specifically around particular projects or challenges within organizations, I think that really is disruptive, in all the good ways that we think about disruption within organizations.

Micah Parzen: Thanks, Elizabeth. Lori, do you want to have the last word?

Lori Fogarty: Yeah, I will say, I think a huge part of being a human-centered organization is creating a learning culture and learning can happen at every level of the organization. One thing we adopted when we did an exhibition on Pixar. It’s their own internal learning structure. We launched omka U. ROU in our case. We have staff that will lead sessions for other staff.

Whether our grant writer kind of sharing best practices in what a grant writer does. We had a graphic designer who did a font tour through an exhibition. It really gains appreciation of the expertise and wisdom that happens throughout the organization. Another way of sort of leveling the playing field that learning can happen throughout the organization and everybody brings perspective an expertise to their role.

A fun one that I think also has brought us a lot of joy.

Micah Parzen: Wonderful. Well, thank you, everybody for joining us for Part 1 here. We encourage you to come back in just five minutes through the next session portal. We will be sharing some specific examples. We will invite you to share yours. We will continue this discussion about what human-centered workplace cultures can look like and we are eager to learn from you and co-learn with you. I know AAM has something they want to share before we sign off, and we will see you all soon.

>> Yes, thank you all so much for joining for this excellent presentation. We now direct you to either the moderated track-based breakout, I think was just mentioned to continue this discussion. Or you could also Xplorenet Working Groups to connect with colleagues who have similar roles and interest. You may move between these two formats if you would like. Please enjoy these one-hour breakouts which will conclude our program today. And we look forward to seeing you back tomorrow at 1:00 p.m. eastern, to hear from our inspiring big ideas speakers and insights from our panelists. Thank, everybody.

Micah Parzen: See you soon.